Forums - ST: Gief or T Hawk? Show all 27 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- ST: Gief or T Hawk? (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=37830) Posted by Flint3125 on 08:29:2001 05:40 PM: ST: Gief or T Hawk? Alright, I'm beating the dead horse here, but I've been thinking about which one is better to use. What are some matches where THawk would be better? Conversly, what are some matches where Gief would be the better choice? Finally, what are some matches that they won't win period? If you guys could include the reasons (detailed) why you feel a certain way, I'd greatly appreciate it. Personally, I'm leaning towards THawk because of a) his DP move and b) his diving condor => 720 Super Storm Hammer. Both of these move seem to be pretty useful. Thanks again and I'll check back after school. (I'm a H.S. Math teacher). JTS Posted by lonelyfighter on 08:29:2001 07:42 PM: Well if it is ST you can use T.hawk and have success it just take alot of hard work and practice but I have heard of dominant Hawks. If is not ST never ever use T.Hawk and expect to win he is only good it ST. The only problem is that anything Hawk can do Gief can do better. Example take Hawk's conmdor dive its only real uses are to jump and cancel it with condor dive real low so you slide to a stop right infront of your opponet and do whatever or as a anti fireball move. If you actually try to just jump up and hit them with it you will get killed. Now take his upper move it is only really good as a anti-air if you werre gief no one would be jumping in on you IMHO. Although Hawk has the advantage of not many people playing him he is kind of a unknown quantity in ST. He also has one of the best s.jabs in the game. Gief is just a monster in ST his range is nuts on ths SPD and it takes like a quarter life I am not good with the match up stuff so I will leave that for someone more qualified. I am also kind of a novice at ST so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt. P.S. Do not listen to that Barlog guy he is full of shit Posted by Flint3125 on 08:30:2001 01:29 PM: thanks for the thoughts, lonely. I guess I'm leaning towards T because with his super you can take close to 60%. That's a lot of hurt... JTS Posted by lonelyfighter on 08:30:2001 03:34 PM: No prob, Giefs Super does hella damge as well Posted by roboticus on 08:30:2001 03:38 PM: A lot of people rank T.Hawk higher than Zangief, or just below him. Of all the new characters, T.Hawk, I've heard from more than one source, is the best (imo, it's Fei Long). As said before, s.jab is suppose to be one of the best moves in the game. It stops a ton of things and, like Zangief, you can pseduo-tick yourself into super. I finally saw one semi-decent THawk. He kept crouching forward (sometimes c.strong) to provide spacing, mixing it up w/s.jab to advance inside. If he got the right spacing (not sure what that is) he would dive low to get next to me. Then he would s.jab a lot more and go for the SPD. Thing about the SPD is that it's range, imo, is way less than Z's -- at least when I play him. Forget about that super, that's hard as hell to land. His DP move is slow as hell and each punch version leaves him super open. To easy to make mistakes, and too slow to do move in. Zangief at least has those hop moves and the clothesline to move in. Range is better on the SPD. S.short, c.fwd, and c.rh are nice moves. Imo, play zangief, if for anything, the better range on the SPD. Dale Posted by Nutlog on 08:30:2001 03:41 PM: Honestly, I'd really give it to Gief. His range on the SPD is just sick in ST. Geif has reliable anti-air tactics of his own through normals and on the off occasion that damn stun headbutt. Hawk has a slight advantage on normals, but it seems to be totally overridden by Geif's absurd SPD range, which Hawk definitely does not have. Posted by Flint3125 on 08:30:2001 04:17 PM: Definitely some things to think about with Gief. The problem is with Hawk I can get close with the Diving Condor, but with Gief I don't have that advantage. I haven't thought about Z's range over THawk, though. The range on Hawk's Super is pretty surreal on the other hand. Hmm... Thanks for the replies. JTS Posted by Nutlog on 08:30:2001 06:02 PM: True you can use your condor with T.Hawk. That's what I see as one of his main flaws. He actually needs to get closer. Geif can SPD just about anyone from outside standard crouching forward range. He doesn't need to get that close. Posted by vega-x on 08:31:2001 04:45 AM: One things for sure: Everything T-Hawk does, Zangief does NOT do better. If I was playing against a Shoto or Old Sagat, I would choose T-Hawk over Zangief. A) The Condor move can be whiffed into a 360 or Super, but in high level play, you'll more likely get DP'ed out of it. If you've got great reactions, you can jump over a fireball and Condor the opponent before they recover. B) Both characters have good C.Jabs, but I like T-Hawk's normals better. His C.Forward is a handy poke, and I also like S.Roundhouse from about 1/2 screen to knock them out of the air while they're on the way up. C) His DP. I don't like it for anti-air, as it has a tendancy to trade hits, but is IS great to end combo's with. Does plenty of damage and often dizzies that way. Now I'm not saying Zangief is bad, but he does not have as many options. While Zangief has an easier time around fireballs via the Banishing Flat & Lariat, there isn't very much he can do against a good keep-out player. Posted by chun on 08:31:2001 07:45 AM: gif is better cos hawk had no way against akuma air fb..... Posted by roboticus on 08:31:2001 04:11 PM: Grimlock (aka Kalok, etc.) you moron: The absolute most lopsided match in the game is Akuma v. Zangief. Are you that bored that you have to constantly post these one lines of drivel to topics you definitely know nothing about? To add even further insult, you tell people that they are wrong (without any evidence, other than that you're the best player in HK, and that Honda rules) when you ask for their opinion. To see why Akuma v. Zangief is the most lopsided, at the beginning of the match, Akuma jumps straight up and air-fbs, lands, fb, repeat. Zangief will never get closer than when they started the match. Depending on what ground fb Zangief uses, Akuma can win this match by tick dmg alone (assuming infinite counter, regular counter prolly puts Zangief at 65-70% strength.) This match-up is 100-0, Akuma. Grimlock, now tell me how Honda owns. As for Zangief better or not than THawk, imo, Zangief has much better pokes in the footise dept. That's the real key at ST. Dale Posted by Flint3125 on 09:04:2001 01:02 PM: Alright, I'm a scrub. I'll admit it. Now, I'd like to know how/when/why footies are so powerful. I'm understanding ticks (I don't consistently use them) but I'm not there with the footsies thing. Fill me in if you can and thanks. JTS Posted by sumo on 09:05:2001 02:30 AM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus Grimlock (aka Kalok, etc.) you moron: The absolute most lopsided match in the game is Akuma v. Zangief. Are you that bored that you have to constantly post these one lines of drivel to topics you definitely know nothing about? To add even further insult, you tell people that they are wrong (without any evidence, other than that you're the best player in HK, and that Honda rules) when you ask for their opinion. To see why Akuma v. Zangief is the most lopsided, at the beginning of the match, Akuma jumps straight up and air-fbs, lands, fb, repeat. Zangief will never get closer than when they started the match. Depending on what ground fb Zangief uses, Akuma can win this match by tick dmg alone (assuming infinite counter, regular counter prolly puts Zangief at 65-70% strength.) This match-up is 100-0, Akuma. Grimlock, now tell me how Honda owns. As for Zangief better or not than THawk, imo, Zangief has much better pokes in the footise dept. That's the real key at ST. Dale 100-0 in akuma favour???u fool!it is 60-40 i think....do u know wht is gief's green hand?????[do u know how it used to against akuma's air fb???]this is why i think gif better than hawk..... Posted by JopoK on 09:05:2001 04:54 AM: Gief is better. If for no other reason than the spd has more range, lets also not forget about the clothesline from hell.. Posted by sumo on 09:05:2001 09:12 AM: yes,gif rock. Posted by roboticus on 09:05:2001 02:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by sumo 100-0 in akuma favour???u fool!it is 60-40 i think....do u know wht is gief's green hand?????[do u know how it used to against akuma's air fb???]this is why i think gif better than hawk..... Grimlock you dolt: To green hand through Akuma's air-fb, you have to be at the right distance, b/c the green hand has to hit at the height of its arc, otherwise, it misses and hits Gief in the head. Assuming that Gief does block green hand through the air-fb, he has a pause where Akuma can either a) multi-hit fb, b) hk, c) dp, or the preferred, d) hk xx dp, repeat. 100-0, Akuma. The only way Zangief wins is if Gief green hands the fb, and is able to cancel his green hand pause animation into the spd, and if Akuma is asleep (the most important factor). Dale Posted by sumo on 09:05:2001 02:35 PM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus Grimlock you dolt: To green hand through Akuma's air-fb, you have to be at the right distance, b/c the green hand has to hit at the height of its arc, otherwise, it misses and hits Gief in the head. Assuming that Gief does block green hand through the air-fb, he has a pause where Akuma can either a) multi-hit fb, b) hk, c) dp, or the preferred, d) hk xx dp, repeat. 100-0, Akuma. The only way Zangief wins is if Gief green hands the fb, and is able to cancel his green hand pause animation into the spd, and if Akuma is asleep (the most important factor). Dale gif can win if he use the green hand,this match is 70-30 in akuma's favour,i think honda had much more win chance against akuma. Posted by roboticus on 09:05:2001 02:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by Flint3125 Alright, I'm a scrub. I'll admit it. Now, I'd like to know how/when/why footies are so powerful. I'm understanding ticks (I don't consistently use them) but I'm not there with the footsies thing. Fill me in if you can and thanks. JTS Footsies help you control spacing and ranging. Also, in the case of Zangief, it sets up the knockdown where you start the meaty attacks and the mind games. Ticking is there you break the turtle's shell, which a good footsie game will turn your opponent into (though, beware the professional turtles and all Guiles). W/gief, a common tactic is to s.short (hit or blckd) xx spd (not a true tick, but close enough), c.fwd xx c.rh (knockdown). These are the bread and butter footsie games. You have to mix it up and know which ones to do it against, e.g. you wouldn't s.short xx spd vs Bison, Honda, or Dhalsim b/c they all have larger throw ranges. Dale Posted by chun on 09:05:2001 02:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by roboticus Footsies help you control spacing and ranging. Also, in the case of Zangief, it sets up the knockdown where you start the meaty attacks and the mind games. Ticking is there you break the turtle's shell, which a good footsie game will turn your opponent into (though, beware the professional turtles and all Guiles). W/gief, a common tactic is to s.short (hit or blckd) xx spd (not a true tick, but close enough), c.fwd xx c.rh (knockdown). These are the bread and butter footsie games. You have to mix it up and know which ones to do it against, e.g. you wouldn't s.short xx spd vs Bison, Honda, or Dhalsim b/c they all have larger throw ranges. Dale dun forget gif is great to kill balrog! Posted by Flint3125 on 09:05:2001 05:27 PM: Ok Dale, what are some meaty attacks with Gief? I need some help here, majorly. You've been very helpful. JTS Posted by chun on 09:06:2001 04:40 AM: hawk is tone down in ST.:< Posted by roboticus on 09:06:2001 05:35 PM: quote: Originally posted by Flint3125 Ok Dale, what are some meaty attacks with Gief? I need some help here, majorly. You've been very helpful. JTS Basically, a meaty attack is any attack that has hitting retracting frames. You use meaty attacks on knockdowned opponents. A reversal DP maneuver will beat a meaty attack. The cpu does this to me all damn day for free, as well as Mike Watson at MWC (w/O.Ken). W/Zangief, I like to c.fwd (linked - I forgot the symbol notation for this) c.rh. I'm not sure if this is a true link, but it sure looks like it. This really isn't a meaty attack as well, b/c I'm positive that the c.fwd misses completely (also a reason not a link), causing the waking-up character to try to counter that move (most of the time, prematurely). Another one I like is j.fr (hold d on stick) aka superman, this is Zangief's deep hitting cross-up. Hold d late so that you can confuse people into thinking that you might do j.knee (I usually use j.fwd+d). This isn't as confusing a cross-up as Ken or Ryu, but for the most part it will do. -If you connect the j.knee, immediately do SPD or throw, success rate should be better for throw, but I always go for the more dmging SPD. -If you connect the superman, immediately do c.fwd + SPD. This doesn't link/cancel, but it looks like it does. I think reversal dp is the only move that beats the SPD, jumping doesn't. -for a more advance combo, after superman do c.jabx3, s.jab xx green fist (jab, I think). You might be able to do c.jabx4 (doubtful) (x5? very doubtful). Oh, don't expect to nail these combos in high tourney play, but if you do, you must be doing pretty good. Those are the ones I use. If there are more, then it's my fault for not testing it out. Dale Posted by Flint3125 on 09:07:2001 05:04 PM: Ok, I just took a trip to scrubville. What's a "retracting" frame? And is the meaty attacks like when someone's crossing me up w/ Ryu and then just starts laying on the storts? I try to reverse, but it doesn't work. Do I just block? Thanks a bunch. JTS Posted by LiquiTed on 09:07:2001 10:48 PM: Flint... Hi...now that thats out of the way . A meaty attack is USUALLY an attack on a downed opponet whose animation begins BEFORE said downed opponets sprites hit boxes are active (ie...you cr.RH Ryu and he's flat on his back and since this isn't MvC2 he can't be OTG'd so his "hit-ability" doesn't start untill he rises off the ground ) So in the above sitution , once ryu has been downed , "Gief walks forward and does cr.forward at the end of Ryu's "downed" animation . The purpose behind this is that the "meaty" attack hits late in the moves animation , but since the hit stun stays the same , the animation ends early enough to allow an easier than normal link . BTW...We need to get together and play A3/ST soon . I've started playing 'Gief some myself on A3 . Ted Posted by mad on 09:08:2001 08:56 AM: hawk suck but hawk is better than gief when fighting akuma....air-fb! Posted by Flint3125 on 09:09:2001 01:50 PM: Thanks Ted. That does clear up some stuff. Probably the earliest I can get away is at the tourney. Like Mike said, whatever you want to bring, we'll play. I'm really anxious to play some A3 though, I just picked it up for the DC. Bring on Gief! JTS Posted by sf2t on 09:10:2001 07:20 AM: both hawk and gif are tone down in st. All times are GMT. The time now is 11:14 PM. Show all 27 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.